Comments on: The Prostitute Preacher http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/ an emerging liturgical community in NYC Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:55:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Donny http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-4113 Donny Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:37:50 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-4113 Interesting look at a broader subject than most imagine. From Antioch to Mysia(Monatist)circa.150A.D.; the Novations of Rome 250 A.D. The Donatist of Carthage 311 A.D.the expansion of the word of God into southern Europe and / Northern Italy the Paterines of 945, the Waldensians in Lyons, France 1150 A.D, the Anna Baptist (western Europe) 1525 Wycliffe's Lollards (the barefoot preachers of the 14th century) all bible belivers before the reformation of Martin Luther. All had their theological difficulties, yet one major common platform, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon as given in Revelations and that torture and death is preferable to embracing popery' Want to read a book on why a "church" would so fervently attack a people telling the world about Jesus, read, Fox's Book Of Martyrs or The Two Babylon"s by Alexander Hyslop. prostitution takes on a much deeper and more sinister meaning to those who believe the scripture to be the word of God, it denotes that you have walked away from Christ to embrace or marry, if you will, another god. Yea let God be true but every man a liar. The every day run of the mill Christian can read 5th grade English and the book says one mediator between God and man the man CHRIST JESUS (emphasis added) no pope, no saint, no mother or Queen of Heaven, CHRIST JESUS. ISSAC, IF YOU THINK ME TO BE A ZAELOT, THANK YOU, I only ask after studying the Bible, are you? And if not why not? Least all your seeking be in vain. respectfully, donny kirkland 2/12/08 Interesting look at a broader subject than most imagine. From Antioch to Mysia(Monatist)circa.150A.D.; the Novations of Rome 250 A.D. The Donatist of Carthage 311 A.D.the expansion of the word of God into southern Europe and / Northern Italy the Paterines of 945, the Waldensians in Lyons, France 1150 A.D, the Anna Baptist (western Europe) 1525 Wycliffe’s Lollards (the barefoot preachers of the 14th century) all bible belivers before the reformation of Martin Luther. All had their theological difficulties, yet one major common platform, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon as given in Revelations and that torture and death is preferable to embracing popery’ Want to read a book on why a “church” would so fervently attack a people telling the world about Jesus, read, Fox’s Book Of Martyrs or The Two Babylon”s by Alexander Hyslop.
prostitution takes on a much deeper and more sinister meaning to those who believe the scripture to be the word of God, it denotes that you have walked away from Christ to embrace or marry, if you will, another god. Yea let God be true but every man a liar. The every day run of the mill Christian can read 5th grade English and the book says one mediator
between God and man the man CHRIST JESUS (emphasis added) no pope, no saint, no mother or Queen of Heaven, CHRIST JESUS.
ISSAC, IF YOU THINK ME TO BE A ZAELOT, THANK YOU, I only ask after studying the Bible, are you? And if not why not? Least all your seeking be in vain.

respectfully,
donny kirkland 2/12/08

]]> By: Tracy Quan http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1139 Tracy Quan Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:44:58 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1139 What's worse? Well, maybe the real issue is which comes first, which needs solving. The (a) is what leads to (b) I suppose. But you could also say the Waldies were persecuted because they threatened the political power/coffers/authority of the old church. And so, labels like "whore" were a tool to go after people. Is it really about the hatred of whores? Or about the desire to retain power? Sylvia Federici points out that many of the worst punishments against prostitutes and witches came from SECULAR COURTS -- churches were not innocent, but nor were they alone. And the stepped up persecution was an attempt to centralize state authority. So much for the healing (magical?) qualities of the Secular. Plus, for a long time the church was pretty tolerant of prostitution, it was a revenue producer. In fact, tolerance and persecution can BOTH be revenue producers... right? So why do some regimes/churches veer one way or the other? Is that the question? The Waldensians are new to me actually! I reccomend that you get her book direct from the publisher, as they are a small press & worth supporting: http://bookstore.autonomedia.org/ "Caliban & the Witch" is #5 on their bestsellers, it is definitely a good read. And ever so timely. What’s worse? Well, maybe the real issue is which comes first, which needs solving. The (a) is what leads to (b) I suppose. But you could also say the Waldies were persecuted because they threatened the political power/coffers/authority of the old church. And so, labels like “whore” were a tool to go after people. Is it really about the hatred of whores? Or about the desire to retain power?

Sylvia Federici points out that many of the worst punishments against prostitutes and witches came from SECULAR COURTS — churches were not innocent, but nor were they alone. And the stepped up persecution was an attempt to centralize state authority. So much for the healing (magical?) qualities of the Secular. Plus, for a long time the church was pretty tolerant of prostitution, it was a revenue producer. In fact, tolerance and persecution can BOTH be revenue producers… right? So why do some regimes/churches veer one way or the other? Is that the question?

The Waldensians are new to me actually! I reccomend that you get her book direct from the publisher, as they are a small press & worth supporting:
http://bookstore.autonomedia.org/

“Caliban & the Witch” is #5 on their bestsellers, it is definitely a good read. And ever so timely.

]]> By: Isaac http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1134 Isaac Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:27:52 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1134 I think I will check it out! I don't know which makes me sadder, a) that the church did such horrible things to prostitutes or b) that the church labeled female preachers "prostitutes" because it was the worst insult they could think of. I wouldn't say that the Waldensians are old hat for anyone; I'm really impressed you've heard of them! I might start a list of my favorite heresies - largely forgotten groups of people who were persecuted for believing (and doing) some really great things. Maybe someday Transmission will be branded as heretics... =) And yeah, the Waldenses and the Waldensians are the same group of people. =) I think I will check it out! I don’t know which makes me sadder, a) that the church did such horrible things to prostitutes or b) that the church labeled female preachers “prostitutes” because it was the worst insult they could think of.

I wouldn’t say that the Waldensians are old hat for anyone; I’m really impressed you’ve heard of them! I might start a list of my favorite heresies – largely forgotten groups of people who were persecuted for believing (and doing) some really great things. Maybe someday Transmission will be branded as heretics… =)

And yeah, the Waldenses and the Waldensians are the same group of people. =)

]]> By: Tracy Quan http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1133 Tracy Quan Sat, 21 Apr 2007 00:45:42 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1133 OMG. I've been reading about this in a book by Sylvia Federici. "Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation" There is a lot in here about the Church, about the witch-hunts, and about prostitutes. She talks about the heresies...an eye-opener for me. Maybe it's old hat for you guys but I didn't know about these sects. She refers to Waldenses rather than Waldensians. Same thing, I suppose? Her book is very Marxist btw, which I am not, but don't let that stop you. The writing is compelling and intense. She also talks about the punishments prostitutes had to endure in the later part of the European Middle Ages, how this tied in with depriving women of property rights and other rights enjoyed before the period 1400-1600s. Well, she's a fascinating thinker and writer. Check out her book. OMG. I’ve been reading about this in a book by Sylvia Federici. “Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation”

There is a lot in here about the Church, about the witch-hunts, and about prostitutes.

She talks about the heresies…an eye-opener for me. Maybe it’s old hat for you guys but I didn’t know about these sects. She refers to Waldenses rather than Waldensians. Same thing, I suppose? Her book is very Marxist btw, which I am not, but don’t let that stop you. The writing is compelling and intense.

She also talks about the punishments prostitutes had to endure in the later part of the European Middle Ages, how this tied in with depriving women of property rights and other rights enjoyed before the period 1400-1600s. Well, she’s a fascinating thinker and writer. Check out her book.

]]> By: Isaac http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1020 Isaac Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:45:51 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1020 I did ask Dean Cameron about them, although we haven't had a chance to discuss them yet. When I began the project, I didn't realize that he had done his dissertation on the Waldensians, nor did I realize that many of the sources I turned up would have been written by him. It was a bit intimidating. In any case, if you're interested, I'll throw itup here. I'm sure the last thing you need write now is one more paper to read, but I really enjoyed researching it and would enjoy hearing your thoughts on the subject. The paper is here: <a href="http://www.transmissioning.org/whyafterthee.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.transmissioning.org/whyafterthee.html</a> I did ask Dean Cameron about them, although we haven’t had a chance to discuss them yet. When I began the project, I didn’t realize that he had done his dissertation on the Waldensians, nor did I realize that many of the sources I turned up would have been written by him. It was a bit intimidating.

In any case, if you’re interested, I’ll throw itup here. I’m sure the last thing you need write now is one more paper to read, but I really enjoyed researching it and would enjoy hearing your thoughts on the subject.

The paper is here: http://www.transmissioning.org/whyafterthee.html

]]> By: Gabriella Lettini http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1019 Gabriella Lettini Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:35:38 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1019 Hi Isaac! You are raising very good questions! Did ask dean Cameron about any of them, since he is an expert on the Waldensians? I have some theories as well...Warm greetings to Bowie, I worked with her at UTS, she is astounding. I will be at Union for the Poverty Truth Commssion on April 13 and staying over the weekend, I hope we can connect and maybe I get to visit your community. With every good wish, Gabriella Hi Isaac! You are raising very good questions! Did ask dean Cameron about any of them, since he is an expert on the Waldensians? I have some theories as well…Warm greetings to Bowie, I worked with her at UTS, she is astounding. I will be at Union for the Poverty Truth Commssion on April 13 and staying over the weekend, I hope we can connect and maybe I get to visit your community. With every good wish, Gabriella

]]> By: Isaac http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1017 Isaac Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:27:03 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1017 Yay! I knew that Waldensians still existed, but it's really cool to know that one of them is reading our blog. My interest got piqued as I was doing research for a paper entitled: "Why After Thee? Poverty, Preaching, and Politics of the early Franciscans and Waldensians." Basically, I was trying to figure out why St Francis became Christianity's most beloved saint while John Valdes is largely forgotten; it's considering how startlingly similar their original movements were. But that aside, if you're ever back in NYC we'd love to have you stop by. You used to teach at Union, right? I'm currently a student there and my collaborator, Bowie, is a graduate. Let us know if you're ever in town! Wishing you the best~ isaac Yay! I knew that Waldensians still existed, but it’s really cool to know that one of them is reading our blog. My interest got piqued as I was doing research for a paper entitled: “Why After Thee? Poverty, Preaching, and Politics of the early Franciscans and Waldensians.” Basically, I was trying to figure out why St Francis became Christianity’s most beloved saint while John Valdes is largely forgotten; it’s considering how startlingly similar their original movements were.

But that aside, if you’re ever back in NYC we’d love to have you stop by. You used to teach at Union, right? I’m currently a student there and my collaborator, Bowie, is a graduate. Let us know if you’re ever in town!

Wishing you the best~
isaac

]]> By: Gabriella Lettini http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1016 Gabriella Lettini Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:59:36 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1016 I am actually a Waldensian theologian and ordained minister from Italy (but living in the US), and self-defining as woman, so I was very glad to read your posting and learn of your interest in the Waldensians. I feel honored you mentioned the Waldensians on this site. From what I read Transmission is doing great work! If I still lived in NYC I would certainly visit your community. I am actually a Waldensian theologian and ordained minister from Italy (but living in the US), and self-defining as woman, so I was very glad to read your posting and learn of your interest in the Waldensians. I feel honored you mentioned the Waldensians on this site. From what I read Transmission is doing great work! If I still lived in NYC I would certainly visit your community.

]]> By: hal weiner http://www.transmissioning.org/2007/03/28/the-prostitute-preacher/comment-page-1/#comment-1015 hal weiner Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:21:53 +0000 http://www.transmissioning.org/?p=142#comment-1015 Hey, what do you expect? From the Church that gave you preacher apologists for slavery at the time of the American Civil War; the Church that snuggles up to the likes of Archbishop Peter Akinola(Nigeria) to " honor " him so he can trash it... the beauty of it all is when I was an early morning greeter at the Cathedral and people would tell me " it's beautiful here, but I just don't like organized religion " I would declaim loudly that this was their church.... we are more disorganized than any of them.... maybe that's why I lost the job. Hey, what do you expect? From the Church that gave you preacher apologists for slavery at the time of the American Civil War; the Church that snuggles up to the likes of Archbishop Peter Akinola(Nigeria) to ” honor ” him so he can trash it… the beauty of it all is when I was an early morning greeter at the Cathedral and people would tell me ” it’s beautiful here, but I just don’t like organized religion ” I would declaim loudly that this was their church…. we are more disorganized than any of them…. maybe that’s why I lost the job.

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